Kaozeadenn Implijer:Guénael~brwiki

Hi Guénael

I wanted to make a logo for the Breton Wikipedia so I will need the translation of the following:

"Wikipedia, l'enciclopedie libre"

thanks!

--Node /talk

I´d say "Wikipedia, An Añsiklopedi Diluï". There are other words for "encyclopédie" (diksioner a ouiziegezh), but they are longer, and i'm afraid it'd be difficult to make a logo with them...

Guénael

Node ue> It depends of your meaning of "free". The french "libre" is an interpretation. It means "independant", but not "free of charge".

Secondly, there is a problem on how to spell the word for Encyclopedy : etymologicaly ("ensiklopedi") or phoneticaly ("añsiklopedi"). Myself I prefer the first.

Here is a good slogan : "An ensiklopedi dinask ha digoust"
or "Wikipedi, dinask, digoust" to stay short...

Actually, that is supposed to be the meaning for translation, "libre" and not "gratis". --node

I think the best would be An ensiklopedïenn frank. This could please the opinions of most people and meet the facts of the two main breton dialects. CTanguy 13:44, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Guénael> Ewid psort reson ne lansfec'h ket ur Wikipedia en gwenedeg, pe ur Wikipedia en brezhoneg "mod-peisant" gwirion.
Me a blij din kals lenn ho traou. Ne vern pessort skritur, e-barzh ar fin...
Ha gant tud ar peurunvan ho-po a-taw problemoù.

CTanguy 20:34, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

"An Ensiklopedi dinask ha digoust" > Er skriturieu brehoneg 'glask bout fonétik eroalh, nezen 'vehè guèl skriv "añsiklopedi" moarhat. Uélan ket de betra jervij en diben -enn én "ansiklopédienn". Aveit gobér brehonekoh? Jervij ket de nitra, a gav genein. Me oui erhat vè berped problémeu get tud er peurunvan. Mè ne grédan ket é vehè mat gobér ur Wikipédia é brehoneg er bobl: er Wikipédia brehoneg-man e zeliehè bout é brehoneg er bobl, kar er brehoneg ne hel ket bout 'meit langaj er bobl: en "néo-breton" nend é ket brehoneg: guèl é pas ket skriv èl-sen ha chetu tout. E vehè ret chanj er pèh zo bet skrivet ér Wikipédia-man eit er lakat é brehoneg er bobl, mè 'mes ket amzer, ha ret vehè klah er girieu teknik -- bout zo lod-kaer anehè ha n'anaùan ket, ar dañnéiaou ha n'on ket forh dueh arnehè. Ohpen eit kement-sen, 'mes ket amzér de obér ar-dro ur Wikipédia neùé.

Eit ho titl, me gréd 'vehè guèl impliein er gir "diluï" (gir KLT), kentoh eit "dinask". Sellet a-barh diksionér Garnier (tout ar skuérieu a-barh hennan zo frazenneu bet kleùet é-mesk er bobl), doh er gir "diluï": "Tu es plus libre quand le commerce appartient à toi seul = muioh diluï e vezez pa vez ar hoñvers dit da-unan". "Frank" ne vehè ket mat azé, grédan ket. "An Añsiklopedi Frank" e hra drol. Lakamb, mard oh koutant, "An Añsiklopedi diluï ha digoust". Me espéra nend é ket ré-hir aveit er logo !

Guénael

Skrivet em-boa "ensiklopedïenn" diwar reolennoù Geriadur ar Matematikoù (Jean Marot, Skol Vreizh), e-lec'h e vez kavet "enkloset", "enskrivañ"... "sikleg", "siklotomik"... "anomalienn"...
An dra-se vez distaget (mà vez lakaet un trema a-taw...) [E~nsiklope'di:n] An "-enn" zo bet an doare da vrezhonekaad gerioù galleg feminin, ba broioù KLT, a-viskoazh.
Bremañ e vez lâret [ãsiklope'di] kentoc'h, e-gis ba Bro Gwened. Pezh zo, mar skrivit "añsiklopedi", an dra-se vefe da zistagañ [ãsiklo'pedi] lojikamant... Ha mod pe vod, ur ger kemeret deus ar galleg eo. Hag ar mod a-vremañ, gant langajoù all, zo da gemer gerioù sort-se gant oo ortograf orijinel.

E-barzh ar fin, neuse, e gennigfen "An encyclopédie libr"... pe (un ide all c'hoazh...) skrivomp anehañ fonetikamant ha gant an Alphabet Phonétique International, peogwir en-deus ket englew e-bed war an doare-skrivañ : "[,nãsi'klope,di 'lip]".

NB: An taol vras deus ekzamploù ar Garnier zo bet kemeret deus dastumadeg Jules Gros...

CTanguy 19:32, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Discussion

Merci de lire Wikipedia:An ti-chopin et de donner ton avis. R 01:35, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Eit skriv é fonétik, mat eroalh, mè en diézemant é, er loden vrasan doh er ré e zei de sit Wikipédia ne ouiant ket lén en API. Ohpen eit kement-sen, er léhieu 'men 'pes laket en taol-boéh zo drol eroalh. Pezh zo, mar skrivit "añsiklopedi", an dra-se vefe da zistagañ [ãsiklo'pedi] lojikamant > perak ? er ré e ouia brehoneg ouia penaos distillein en dra-sen ha 'men é ma ret lakat en taol-boéh...

Guénael.

Me a respont deoc'h bà Wikipedia:An ti-chopin... CTanguy

Translation of the week

Currently we have started a project on meta.wikipedia to get an article translated in as many wikipedias as possible every week. The article will be about a subject that usually gets rarely translated and has a lot of links to other subjects. Currently we have no-one to translate in your language. If someone is interested to participate please see: meta:Translation of the week You can also submit articles from your own languages there that you think deserve translation, but have a small chance of it. The articles must not be to short and not to long and have lots of links to possible other articles! en:user:Waerth

A propos de Irlandeg et Iwerzoneg

Je n'ai pas le moindre avis sur la question de savoir s'il faut écrire "irlandeg" ou "iwerzoneg". Par contre, il existe un principe très important sur toutes les Wikipedias, en partie en raison de la licence GFDL, qui est qu'il ne faut pas détruire l'historique de la page. A cause de cela, il ne faut pas transférer le contenu d'une page par copier-coller, mais utiliser la fonction "move" pour changer le titre. Là, ça ne va pas être possible immédiatement car Irlandeg existe déjà et il faut un administrateur pour effacer cette page afin de rendre le changement de titre possible. R 23:38, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Demande d'info

Bonjour, ne sachant pas très bien ce qui se passe et au vu des insultes dans les commentaires d'effacement, j'ai temporairement désysopé Ankowes.

Pourrais-tu s'il-te-plait m'expliquer ce qu'il se passe, par exemple par mail (http://br.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Special:Emailuser&target=Looxix ).

Merci, d'avance.

-- Looxix

Qui s'est fait insulter ? A quel endroit? J'ai vu que certains effacaient des choses, par exemple dans mes articles ou dans des articles que j'avais modifiés. Si ca les amuse... Dans le fond, ca ne change rien, car tout est réversible. Par contre les insultes, c'est pas très gentil.

Guénael 01:40, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Ce dont Looxix parle est visible à Wikipedia:Deletion log. R 07:41, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Ah, je n´avais pas vu. Mouais, on dirait qu'y a des gamins de sixième qui visitent notre site. Bof, c'est pas bien grave, ça lui passera avec l'âge!

Guénael 02:44, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Logo

Hi Guénael

Has there been any decision regarding orthography?

Where? When?

At this Wikipedia, for example are you going to use one orthography, or are you going to just tolerate all of them?

What orthography does the government of Britanny use?

Brittany hasn't any specific government, Brittany is governed by the French government, which doesn't care a damn for Breton culture and language (the same happens in all other regions of France), so there's no official orthography and the language doesn't even have any official status. According to French Constitution, the only language in France is French (though there are maybe more than thirty other local languages!). There are three major spellings being used nowadays (and other ones that are less used).

I know :( It's probably better for me to ask: What does Ofis ar Brezhoneg use? Regardless of which orthography is best, which one is most used? I don't know Breton and I don't wish to boss you around, these are just some things I thought might be helpful

Ofis ar Brezhoneg uses the peurunvan spelling (which isn't surprising, since all its leaders are nationalists). It doesn't mean this spelling is better than another one. If you hear Ofis ar Brezhoneg's workers (I mean its leaders, those that are in Rennes) speaking Breton, you'd believe they're speaking French: their pronounciation is French, their accent is French, their syntax is French, they all make mistakes (even beginner's mistakes sometimes). Of course there isn't any native speaker there, I wonder if they have ever talked with any native Breton speaker... I'm not sure (anyway if they have, they don't try to speak like them!). Maybe these people have been put in charge of Ofis ar Brezhoneg because they were friends of some influent people, but not because they are competent in Breton. There are loads of people who are much more competent than them!

Guénael 01:13, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

What about the Diwan schools?

Just read what has been written about them in the article about Breton. Most of Diwan schools teachers use the "unified" orthography (called peurunvan). This orthography isn't perfect: it doesn't suit to any pronounciation of Breton, it's not etymological and it's rather confusing for learners. And anyway, there are specific problems in Breton pronounciation, that can't be resolved at all with any orthography (if we want it to reflect the way it's pronounced).

Unfortunately I can't read Breton (unless you mean the articles on other Wikipedias).

If there has been a decision I have an additional comment: it is actually supposed to be "libre" because the content is free (-> free to be distributed, not that it doesn't cost money), as it is in the French logo.

Is there any definite logo text yet? I think the best idea for a word for "encyclopedia" is to go for something that is Breton rather than French in origin: ouiziegezh (this should probably also be done as much as possible in article texts, unless it can't be understood). Remember the text to be translated is "Wikipedia - l'encyclopedie libre".

Best, Node

Sorry, but this is amazing. Amazing but not unusual. Somebody who don't speak Breton comes and teaches us how to speak... (hopefully he would draw us a logo, so...) Breton is a celtic language, everyone will agree : this does not mean at all that it should prefer words Breton (celtic?) in origin.

Since the 15th century, at least, most new words in Breton are of "french origin"... Are... or seem to be...

For example "encyclopedia" is more international than french...

It's just a suggestion, what I thought would be a good idea, not telling you what you should do. I don't like to boss people around at all, it's not my nature, especially when it comes to languages. It's just something I've observed at other Wikipedias, where there is a choice of words, that they often choose the native word rather than the loanword. For example the Low Saxon Wikipedia used "Nokieksel" for encyclopedia when they could've used a High German loanword instead.

For Breton there isn't any native word for encyclopedia, and if we try to make one up, it would have been too long: diksioner a ouiziegezh, levr an oll ouiziegezhioù, etc.

Guénael 01:13, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Actually it's Greek ! (Guénael)

Another example, the breton word "librentez" (liberty). It may seem of french origin. Some would even say it is "a french word"... In fact, this word was in the breton language in the 12th century (according to Geriadur ar Matematikoù), but the french "liberté" is only known from the 13th century (see TLFE, [1]) !!!

The best way to check this for sure might be to see if it appears at all in related languages such as Cornish and Welsh. It might actually be from Latin, if it isn't an indigenous word.

For the logo, in my opinion "An Ensiklopedienn Libr" is the best.

• easy to understand
• close to the major folk pronunciation [ne~nsi,klope'di:n 'lip] versus [nãsi,klope'di: 'lip]
• does not hurt the usual spelling practices

("ouiziegezh" mutes from "gouiziegezh" : it means knowledge)

CTanguy 18:46, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Or "An Añsiklopedïenn Libr" ? Or maybe "An Añsiklopedi digor" ? The -enn ending isn't always used to Bretonize a feminine French word. There are loads of words that have been borrowed from French without adding such an ending. Maybe, "digor" would be better ? Perèk 'gonzamb ket ni é brehoneg aman ? (Why aren't we speaking Breton here?). Añsiklopedïenn digor? Maybe there would be a word, which would suit there rather than "libr". (For me, someone can be "libr", but not something like that). What do u think?

Guénael 03:04, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Ni skriv saosneg ewid bud komprenet gant Node emichañs...

Indeed... sorry :-/

Ya, "digor" zo mad-tre, gwelloc'h eged "libr" ewid an dra-mañ. (Lâret e vez "ar skolioù libr" memes-tra.)

Mar em-beus sonj mat, ne veze ket implijet an tildoù kement-all ba skritur gozh ar gwenedeg :-) (ne garan ket anehe re... me gav anehe pounner...). Añfeñ, c'hwi skriv muioc'h ewidin amañ, setu :

Dam, me 'ouia 'walc'h, med gwraet 'vez gete ur sort a-wezhadoù: soñnein, kañnein,... mard oc'h é klac'h komz a skritur ar ger "añsiklopedi(enn)", 'moa ket klasket er skriv er skritur gwenedeg kozh, med e KLT, skritur etrerannyezhel. Mod arall em-behe bet skriwet "en ansiklopédi digor" !

Guénael 01:13, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

OK for "An añsiklopedi digor" (in lowercase letters), "digor" is like "open" in "open source".

CTanguy 21:38, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC

Mad an traoù, mod-sen 'ma braw-toud, Doue d'ho pennigo, a-benn an achumant ema bet disklomet an afer-sen genomp.

Guénael 01:13, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Salut, je ne parle pas brezhoneg très bien ou le même français très bon, mais j'ai une question.

Pourquoi utilisons-nous ici orthographes en plus de peurunvan? Comme cet exemple ci-dessous indiquera, presque que toutes utilise peurunvan. Toutes les organisations officielles ou quasi-officielles l'utilisent aussi peurunvan.

recherche Google pour "siañsoù" (etomolojik) recherche Google pour "siañsow" (?) recherche Google pour "skiantoù" (peurunvan)

Ainsi, je pense que nous devrions convertir tout le contenu non-peurunvan en peurunvan.